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Post by homer58w on Feb 20, 2009 18:00:27 GMT -5
I can see how Calvinism would think as such based on the following verses: John 15:19 "chosen out of the world", Eph 1:4 "chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world", 2Thess 2:13 "God from the beginnig chosen you to salvation", Rom 8:29 "whom He did foreknow, He also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of His Son", Rom 8:30 whom He did predestinate, them He also called: and whom He called, them He also justified: and whom He justified, them He also glorified."
BUT, they seemed to forget that GOD is eternal and all knowing, so yes He could say He chose us in the very beginning because He knew even then who would believe Him. They left out the fact we need to hear the gospel and believe Him! Rom 10:14 "How then shall they call on Him in Whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in Him of Whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher (proclaimer)." Eph 1:13 "In Whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the Word of Truth, the gospel of your salvation: in Whom also after ye believed, ye were sealed with that Holy Spirit of promise."
As Les Feldick said in one of his classes, on the one side of salvation we could see a door marked "who so ever will believe" and on the other side we can see "chosen before the foundation of the world". God accepts those who take Him at His Word, not those who think they can get to Heaven on their own merits.
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Post by eternalmatters on Feb 21, 2009 19:53:57 GMT -5
I know!!! This drives me bananas! Why do Calvinists think they can understand infinity? I just heard an interesting, yet sad, debate between a <ahem>christian and a muslim. The point I really want to make is that the muslim had such a great argument against Calvinism (and it wasn't even his purpose). He said that sin cannot be sin without free will. If God makes it impossible for us to choose...then He is a monster to punish us for doing what we have absolutely no control over. The same is true about love. How can we attribute love to God if he gives us no choice? Forced or pre-programmed "acceptance" of Him is hardly love. Why would He bother? I don't claim to understand the vastness of this perplexity, but Calvinism is far from an answer! It actually appears to be a mockery. I'm content to be a finite creature trusting and believing on an infinite and eternal Creator!  |
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Post by ambassador on Mar 4, 2009 23:19:34 GMT -5
Five-point Calvanism has some wacky theology... no offense to any 5P Calvinists here, but let the truth be known.... limited atonement, irresistible grace, and predestination are NOT Scriptural. When the Bible uses the word "elect," it does not mean that God chose some to go to heaven and God chose the rest to go to hell. "Elect" means God CHOSE them to SERVE Him, although He has also saved those who serve Him, those who have the indwelling Holy Spirit.
A grace pastor recently explained Biblical "election" to me. For instance, God the Son is called God the Father's "elect" in Isaiah 42:1. Obviously, God the Son DID NOT NEED SAVING FROM HELL, so read the context of the verse. God the Son, Jesus Christ, was CHOSEN to bring forth JUDGMENT [KJV's word for "government"] to the Gentiles. God the Son was given a specific role to serve as King on Earth, His millennial reign. "Elect" cannot mean chosen to be saved from hellfire.
On one hand, God in His foreknowledge did know who was going to be saved, but He also left man with free will... something 5P Calvinists ignore.
"Irresistible grace" is another 5P error... God allows for free will, and He won't force Himself on someone stubborn…. He gave Adam the free will choice to eat, He didn't force Adam.
"Limited atonement" would be contrary to 1 Timothy 2:4-6, 1 Timothy 4:10, Hebrews 2:9, and 2 Peter 3:9 ...although most people will never get saved, God wants them all to be saved.
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Post by audrey on Apr 15, 2009 6:59:09 GMT -5
Calvinism reminds me of a dog chasing it's tail. They have no hope or assurance of their salvation, just like the dog ever has of catching it's tail.
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Post by matt4grace on Apr 22, 2009 13:51:36 GMT -5
...God the Son was given a specific role to serve... I think this is the key to understanding predestination and election. we have a "specific role to serve" in God's plan and foreknowledge. Ephesians 1:4-5 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, The mystery involves God's foreknowledge of a group of believers saved by grace, outside of the specific revealed program to Israel. In other words it is a CORPORATE election and predestination. Remember, we are ONE BODY, the body was predestinated before the foundation of the world, but the individuals-- not necessarily. It's like the game of musical chairs, where it is absolutely certain all the chairs will be filled, but who fills them depends on who gets there! It is our faith in Christ that "gets us there" (and even that is a gift from God) This is one way to understand election and free will and how they can both be true. It doesn't address eternal security, I think that's a different issue, but it would at least allow for the ability to lose it. I personally think once you are sealed, you are sealed. Those who "lose their faith" were probaly believing the kingdom gospel, where works follow and qualify faith... I'm not sure what happens to them, I am just so happy that I can't ever remove, by my own efforts or lack thereof, what God has put in me-- His Spirit. Amen to the blessed God! |
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Post by Faith on Apr 22, 2009 14:56:52 GMT -5
Matt,
Great explanation! This is my understanding also, but you put it into words very well.
Thanks for your comment!
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Post by audrey on May 7, 2009 5:25:36 GMT -5
Yes, Calvinism can kill any ministry because the people stop caring because their stance becomes, "Why bother doing anything because everything is predestined anyway".
In scripture it's always Israel and the Lord Jesus Christ that are chosen or predestined, because both fulfill God's purpose.
Israel might be chosen, but not all Jews are saved - so from this we can see that predestination always applies to God's purpose, and not to people.
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